Tag Archives: Position sizing

Twitter poll on expectancy

Trading Journal

I had put a poll on twitter yesterday with options to choose from various combinations of Winrate and Risk:Reward(RR)

Here is the twitter link:

44% of the voters chose Option 4, 32% of the voters chose Option1, followed by Option 2 and Option3 respectively.

Before getting into the groove of things, I would like to elucidate a bit about ‘Expectancy’ of a system. This term was coined by Van Tharp and here it is:

Expectancy = (Win rate x Average winner) – (Loss rate x Average loser)

If we insert this formula with the numbers given in the poll, We get the following –

Expectancy of System 1 = (0.5×2.2) – (0.5×1) = 1.1 – 0.5 = 0.6

Expectancy of System 2 = (0.7×1.2) – (0.3×1) = 0.84 – 0.3 = 0.54

Expectancy of System 3 (I meant to give the RR of system 3 as 1:0.8 but gave it as 0.8:1 – we will stick to what was given in the poll)
= (0.8×1) – (0.2×0.8) = 0.8 – 0.16 = 0.64

Expectancy of System 4 = (0.35×4) – (0.65×1) = 0.75

So, what is this expectancy? Expectancy is how much one can expect to make on the average over many trades. Expectancy is best stated in terms of how much you can make per rupee you risk. Tharp talks in terms of R-multiples but let us just focus on it in layman terms.

If someone risks 1% per trade and their system expectancy is 0.5, it just means that over a large sample of trades, he is expected to make 0.5% (1% x 0.5) per trade. So, if he has 100 trades in a year, he is expected to make (100×0.5%) 50% that year.

Surface level analysis of the poll results

1. It is quite obvious from the above calculation that higher the expectancy, greater is your chances of making money in the markets. So, as a new trader, it is pretty easy to select the option # 4 from the choices. No brainer there.

2. Few people pointed out that Option 1 is better as it is easy on psychology of the trader. It is true to an extent but if one is striving for better risk adjusted returns, option 4 is the obvious choice again (especially for a pure trend follower). Different people, different choices 😊

3. Some people take profits on the way and they would have naturally gravitate towards a better winrate system with lesser R:R. The traders who trail profits will almost always have a lower WR but better RR system in hand.

4. As I always advocate that there are various ways to skin the cat, nothing is right or wrong here. We just need to pick what is comfortable for us. But, if one has to analyse logically, it is option 4. On a side note, one comment mentioned that we need to find system that have a expectancy like the choices mentioned 😊. Fair enough !!

5. The traders who are new to the market gets enamored by the high winrate for a very simple reason – typically, they don’t want to take losses (Forget about newcomers – even the experienced lot do not like to take losses). Their mind can never get around in accepting the losses. So, they naturally gravitate towards high winrate as high WR typically means more number of winners than losers. But, what they forget is the other side of the coin – the Risk:Reward. They lose more when they lose and win less when they win. This has many statistical implications. We will see that in detail in the next section of this post.

6. Winrate and Risk:Reward should be seen together. They are like peas and carrots, day and night – always go together. This is why I like this expectancy as it nicely clubs both the parameters to give a logical view of the system in hand.

7. Few people have voted for option 3 as they feel high winrate can give them the psychological comfort – again, this is just another way of telling that ‘I don’t want to take losses’. As some great trader mentioned. ‘avoiding losses in trading is like you want to breathe in but don’t want to breathe out’. But if it works for you, great !!

In-depth analysis of the poll

1. Most of the stock market strategies employ trend following concept and the pure essence of trend following is to let the profits run. So, the detailed analysis is based on that assumption.

2. First let us dissect what High Winrate really means. Typically, a high WR system will have low Risk:Reward (compare to a low WR with same expectancy). This is a given. But, this also means that the average loser of a high WR system is usually larger than a low WR system(assuming the timeframe and expectancy are the same). In a trend following system, high WR is usually achieved by giving so much room for the market to catch the trend. Statistically, bigger SL will have a huge drawdown potential (am talking about maximum drawdown) and if the max DD is high, it is very difficult to proceed with the system for two important reasons –

a) The recovery factor will be high – meaning the number of trades it takes to get back to equity high(again) will be more and the problem exasperates if someone is trading higher timeframe. People grossly underestimate time drawdown – but it is a different topic altogether

b) Compounding can be a big problem for a system with larger max DD for obvious reasons

3. When a system has a bigger SL (again assumption is that we are talking about pure trend following systems with trailing stoplosses) like a moving average crossover system, the time the market spends between the entry point and stoploss is huge. This has so many psychological ramifications –

a) It can create havoc to our mind as it will feel that we are always in loss (even though it is not realized). One can draw analogy with an investor who enters a stock and the stock is underwater for 2-3 years. It is a very tough phase for that investor if he is still holding it.

b) It can force a trader to make mistakes (not following the plan) and just letting the emotions take the driver seat (how many of us have heard this ‘ I felt uncomfortable in the trade and got out but only to see the market moving in my favor again’). So, wider SL is a fertile ground for all these mishaps in the thought process.

On the other hand,if WR is less with smaller average losses, it will diminish the active trade time in grey area (between entry and SL) and give us a big advantage mentally.

4. Lesser WR and higher RR generally means smaller losses (compared to high WR and low RR/same expectancy system) and consequently, a trader can be well equipped for the proverbial series of losses in a row. One can place large number of bets or trades before we reach out max limit. So taking randomness into account, we give ourselves a fair chance to be in the game. Not to mention, these smaller SLs will also cap the maximum DD and will keep it nicely in control.

The below picture shows the 95% probability of losing streaks for various winrates. Even a 50% winrate system can have 16 losses in a row over 5000 trades. It is not a question of how but it is a question of when.

Workshop

5. On the flip side, Low WR and high RR will never have even distribution of profits as the system will turn positive only with large profits. If one misses those trades, then the performance would be pretty dismal.

6. The interesting thing is that most of us would feel better with a system that produces more winning trades than losers. The vast majority of people would have a lot of trouble with the 4th system (even though it has the best statistical advantage compared to other systems) because of our natural tendency to want to be right all of the time.

7. As I always say ‘there is nothing right or wrong’ in the markets. We just need to choose what is comfortable for us. The battlecry is ‘how to find the one that is comfortable for us?’. Very simple – try them all with minimum size. Your mind will naturally cling towards the one that is comfortable for you 😊

Happy trading !!

Price action based trading + System trading Workshop

Introduction

As many of you know, i have been trading just the price (a.k.a naked trading) for the last 12 years and was receiving requests to take classes/workshop on how I do price action trading in a mechanical way(absolutely no discretion involved). Heeding to the popular request, I have decided to share the knowledge to people who are interested to learn. My goal is not only to teach you naked (no indicators) price action based trading for both positional and intraday trading but also about how to consistently make money in the markets – the A to Z of trading

Summary of Workshop details

In the first part of the Workshop, I will talk about the basic concepts in Price action based trading and combine advanced knowledge/experience to make the concept an actionable trading strategy that can be used immediately. Many of the price action based strategies are discretionary in nature but as am a rule based trader, I will be teaching you a simple rule-based concept (for both positional and intra) that can be used as a basic building block to trade any asset class including stocks, options and futures.

In the second part of the workshop, I will round out the course by teaching you how to backtest a strategy effectively (to understand its efficacy in real trading), build a money management plan based on the backtesting parameters (why 2% blanket risk per trade does not suit everyone) and Risk management plan along with trading psychology that is required to make money from the markets consistently. I will also help you learn about building a successful trading plan, whether you are a part-time trader or full-time trader.

On the whole, this one day workshop would be a complete package with a discussion about the price action trading concept i trade and implementing the method in practical real-time trading with heavy focus on psychology and Money management.

Who can attend

1. Anyone who wants to learn rule based (mechanical) price action concept for both positional and intraday trading
2. Traders with little experience but do not make money (Only lose money)
3. Traders who make money but not consistently
4. Traders who make money consistently but cannot scale up in trading size

Who should not attend

1. Individuals that do not have a ‘self starter’ mentality (This workshop is designed to provide you with concept/tools that will help you in becoming a successful trader. Implementing this knowledge will be down to you. There will be no ‘spoon feeding’. This workshop will get you started in the right direction)
2. Individual who think by attending this workshop, they will become rich quickly.
3. Individuals who fear work. Attending the workshop is the EASY part. There is actually lot of work ‘after’ the workshop.

Morning Session Topics – the trading strategy

1. Why price action based trading? – They say ‘Price is the king and it precedes everything’. Is it really true?
2. Market structure – Basics
3. Rallies and declines
4. Details of structural pivot high/lows – how to mark them mechanically (to avoid subjectivity)
5. Trends – what constitutes the trend
6. Analyzing trends based on price action structural pivots
7. Positional price action concept with multiple set of mechanical (rule-based) entry/exit rules. Participants can choose the best set of rules based on their psychological comfort level – some are comfortable with profit booking(targets) and some are comfortable with trailing stoploss.
8. Intraday price action concept with multiple set of mechanical (rule-based) exit/entry rules. Participants can choose the best set of rules based on their psychological comfort level
9. Useful price action tips and tricks to extract more juice from the markets

Afternoon Session Topics – executing the strategy to trade profitably (albeit consistently)

1. What is an ‘edge’ in a system? How to quantify an ‘edge’? Do I really have an edge in my system?
2. How to efficiently backtest a strategy – what to look for and pitfalls?
3. How to evaluate backtesting results to find the optimal risk to be taken per trade?
4. Why taking 2% risk per trade will not work for everyone (like the way it is suggested in popular books)?
4. Money management in trading – how to tailor made money management based on the backtested results?
5. Trading journal and its importance
6. The real holy grail of trading – Execution
7. Part time trading vs Full time trading – Differences and their effect on our P/L

8. Role of psychology in trading – will be covering the below mentioned points in psychology
a) How to create a consistent equity curve so you can get off the roller-coaster ride and sleep at night.
b) How to dramatically ‘level up’ your consistency and escape the ‘Sneaky Mental Trap’ that sabotages your profitability when things get ‘too good’
c) The little-understood way to handle fear that separates successful traders from those who are doomed to fail (Finally, operate at your true potential!)
d) How to become a better trader by becoming a better version of yourself (and why market conditions have very little to do with your results)
e) How to know if your mind is tricking you into taking lame trades with low profit potential and holding you back from the results you truly desire

Capital required (approximate)

1 lac/ lot for Intraday futures trading
2 lacs/lot for Positional futures trading (this can change based on the price of the instrument you are trading)

Fees, timings and location

Fees : Rs. 13000/person (Inclusive of Morning Tea/Snacks, Lunch (Veg & Non- Veg buffet), Evening Tea/Snacks)
Timings : 9 AM – 6 PM

Bangalore date and location:

Date: June 15, 2019 (Saturday)
Location: Citrus Hotel at Cunningham Road, Vasanth Nagar, Bangalore

Workshop

Contact details

If you want to be part of the workshop and need further details on payment, please email marketswithmadan@gmail.com or Whatsapp 96770 36689

Participants feedback of Workshops

May 11 2019 Mumbai workshop feedback from the participants

Jan 05 2019 Chennai workshop feedback from the participants

October 13 2018 Hyderabad workshop Feedback from the participants

October 6 2018 Pune workshop feedback from the participants

September 29 2018 Mumbai workshop feedback from the participants

August 18 2018 workshop feedback from the participants

August 11 2018 Bangalore workshop feedback from the participants

Additional Perks of attending the workshop

1. Telegram support group for the attendees (1 month duration) to clear out workshop related doubts.
2. My favorite PDF books on Money management, psychology and much more.
3. Psychocybernetics – my favorite NLP technique audio CD will be shared with the attendees

Happy trading and looking forward to meeting you in-person !!